Q&A: Ellen Baker: Being Who You Are

By Jon Berry, Insight Trails

MAHATMA GANDHI'S SECRETARY WAS ONCE ASKED HOW Gandhi could speak so profoundly, for so long, without preparation, prompting, or notes. “What Gandhi thinks, what he feels, what he says, and what he does are all the same,” the secretary replied. “You and I, we think one thing, feel another, say a third, and do a fourth, so we need notes and files to keep track.”

    We can’t all be Gandhi. But we can strive to be authentic – the same person in what we think, feel, say, and do.

    I was reminded of this insight when I interviewed Ellen Baker. Ellen has multiple spiritual outlets. With her husband, James Sweeney, and four other parishioners, she recently started a church. The congregation, part of a movement breaking away from the Roman Catholic Church, meets every Saturday evening in their home in suburban New York.

    With James, Ellen is studying Buddhism through a three-year program at a Buddhist monastery in upstate New York. She also is a lay associate of an order of Catholic nuns, and has participated in Catholic ministries. She is active in Al-Anon, the 12-step program for family and friends of alcoholics. Ellen views her work as a bookkeeper – she has had an independent practice for 17 years – as an expression of her spirituality as well.

     Her beliefs have sometimes led to confrontations. Her decision to leave the Roman Catholic Church is one example. She once was fired from a job after standing up for what she believed.

    Listening to Ellen talk, the different aspects of her life are reflections of one of the core truths she’s learned – to “to be honest and who you are.”

    I talked with Ellen about her spiritual pursuits, her work, and her journey.

QUESTION: You’re starting a church. Can you tell me about it?

ELLEN BAKER: It’s a brand-new, fledgling parish, and it’s exciting. It’s called the Church for All People. And it is. Nobody’s excluded. Women can be ordained. Gays can get married. Those are two of the big issues we’ve had with the Roman Catholic Church.

     It’s part of the Catholic Apostolic Church in North America (CACINA), which is a movement that started back in the 1940s with priests who left the Roman Catholic Church and started a Vatican-free Catholic Church.

     Right now we have six parishioners. The priest who started our mother church in Brooklyn comes up on Saturdays for the services.

"It’s called the Church for All People. And it is. Nobody’s excluded. Women can be ordained. Gays can get married."

Q: How is it exciting?

A: It’s like we’re astronauts going to visit another planet. If you’re a Catholic, you live your life so locked into tradition. Giving it up is like giving up my citizenship. But at the same time, my heart hasn’t been fully in it.

     Both James and I were out of the church for decades. When we returned, there were always questions in the back of our minds. The Catholic Church’s sex scandal put it over the edge. It was a struggle every time we went to church. We felt like we were wearing two faces. We loved the people and loved our ministries. But when it came to the priests and the hierarchy of the church, we felt like hypocrites. We went through a lot of struggle and discernment, and finally decided we couldn’t do it anymore.

Q: How is the new church different?

A: The laity are involved in all the decisions. We decide the prayers. We take turns being the Eucharistic Minister. It’s what I think of the Catholic Church being like in the early days, when it was a new community, everybody was on equal footing, and services were held in people’s homes. It feels much more natural.

“It’s what I think of the Catholic Church being like in the early days, when it was a new community, everybody was on equal footing, and services were held in people’s homes.”

    I feel like I’m in the place where I’m supposed to be. On Christmas morning, Joe, our priest [the Rev. Joseph Diele, a priest in the Roman Catholic Church for two decades before starting the Church for All People], did a special Liturgy. He asked us where we see God working in our lives. Almost everybody touched on this new community. We didn’t know at first what it would be about. But it’s become a big impetus for all of us. It was a leap of faith. I feel I’m in a community that is all in this together, trusting its instincts and moving forward.

     Every morning during the week, we have a conference call. We get on the phone at a quarter to seven, for five to ten minutes. One person opens it with a prayer for the day. I’m absolutely amazed by what they say. They’re beautiful prayers. Then we have petitions where we pray for specific things, like people who are sick. Then we say the Lord’s Prayer and a short closing. I like it a lot.

Q: What are your relationships like in your former parish?

A: It’s been fine. A number of people feel the same way, but can’t bring themselves to move. They have been in the church all of their adult lives. They cling to the belief that the church is the people, and that it’s important to stay in there and fight. I admire that. I really do. But I’m not that kind of person. I need to get something out of this while I’m here. I’m not here to fight for what’s going to happen in 50 years.

Q: How does the Buddhist study factor in?

A: There are so many similarities between Buddhism and Christianity. Many times what we talked about on Saturday morning in the Buddhism classes turns out to be what comes up that night in the Scripture readings.

Q: Which similarities strike you most?

A: The obvious one is the message. Christ’s message is peace, compassion, and loving your neighbor. That’s basically the Buddha’s message, too – peace, compassion, loving-kindness, no killing, no violence. The life of the Buddha and the life of Jesus have a lot of similarities. Many of the stories in the sacred texts are also similar.

     I had always had a theory that Jesus was the Western Buddha. I could never buy that God would send his Son down to one small group of people and say this is just for you and nobody else. To see this happening, 500 years apart, on two sides of the world, makes a lot more sense to me.

"Christ’s message is peace, compassion, and loving your neighbor. That’s basically the Buddha’s message, too – peace, compassion, loving-kindness, no killing, no violence."

Q: And Al-Anon?

A: 12-step is the umbrella over all my spirituality. Without Al-Anon, I never would have discovered my spirituality. It’s where I learned to have a relationship with my Higher Power, and where I learned to see that Higher Power working in my life. It helped me learn to let go of outcomes and “what if’s.” My other activities are, in a sense, the natural consequence of the awakening I’ve had in Al-Anon. It made me want to connect with like-minded people, learn more, and keep growing.

Q: Going back to when you were a kid, did you always have a large spiritual component in your life?

A: Nothing. We were strict Roman Catholics. But it was all about religion and nothing about spirituality. It was pray, pay, and obey: Do the prayers they tell you to do, pay your donation every Sunday, and do whatever they tell you. I went to Catholic school all the way, right through college. Mass every Sunday. Confession. Sacraments. First Communion. Confirmation. But I never really got it. I didn’t feel anything when I was in church.

“It was all about religion and nothing about spirituality. It was pray, pay, and obey: Do the prayers they tell you to do, pay your donation every Sunday, and do whatever they tell you.”

Q: You wound up on Wall Street. How did that happen?

A: Really, by default. I started college at Elizabeth Seton College in Yonkers, then transferred to Catholic University in Washington. But I dropped out at the end of my junior year. I came back to New York and got a job as a secretary.

     My first job was for the national headquarters of the Girl Scouts. I really liked it. I wanted to work in something that was intrinsically good. I was a hippie, basically. I graduated from high school in 1969. Peace, love, justice and non-violence were definitely part of my life.

     But working for a nonprofit, I wasn’t making a lot of money. Eventually money won out, and I got a job as a secretary for a big Wall Street firm. I worked five years at that firm, then got a job at another Wall Street firm. I started out working for the chairman of the board. I was at the top of the level of being a secretary.

    But the whole time I was on Wall Street, I was bored with the business. I didn’t think I could do anything but type and take shorthand. I didn’t really understand the financial world. I was never out to make a lot of money. Everybody around me was excited about what they were doing. I thought there was something wrong with me. My self-esteem was so low that I felt I couldn’t ask anybody for help. I thought they’d fire me.

Q: When you’re in that type of a hole, it’s hard to work your way out.

A: Plus I was married to an alcoholic. I just thought there was something wrong with me. My husband at the time was in the movie industry, and he got a job in Hollywood. So we picked up and relocated. I was starting to get “sick and tired of being sick and tired,” as people say in Al-Anon. But I went. To some extent, I think I saw it as a chance to break free of my old life and get out of the Wall Street scene.

     We lived in California 14-15 months. I started to make my own friends. I also discovered Taoism. I started having acupuncture. My acupuncturist’s father was a Taoist master. I started reading about Taoism. I didn’t understand any of it but there was something about it that so wonderful and so peaceful. I didn’t know what it was, but I knew it was something I wanted.

“I started reading about Taoism. I didn’t understand any of it but there was something about it that so wonderful and so peaceful... I knew it was something I wanted.”

Q: What happened to change things?

A: My husband lost his job and decided to go back to New York. His addictions were getting worse. In the back of my mind, I was starting to give up on the marriage. I came close to saying go back without me, but I felt I couldn’t give up that easily. We’d been married almost 10 years. I had to give it another shot. So I went back with him.

     The marriage continued to disintegrate. I got a job through a mutual friend working for an interior designer. He was automating his office, putting it all on computer. I could wear my jeans to work, and that really appealed to me. (It still does!) One of the areas I had to automate was the accounting department. I began to see how accounting worked. I realized I was good at it, and liked it. I like everything in neat little piles and wrapped up nicely. That’s my personality.

     I went to a work for a friend of mine who was starting a business. She asked me if I could come in a couple days a week to pay the bills and reconcile the bank statement. That morphed into a full-time job. By then, my husband and I had separated. I wound up doing all the finance and administration for her business. I started going back to school, and took accounting classes to supplement what I didn’t know.

     She had a lot of freelancers working for her – designers, writers. They really liked me. I would pay their bills the same week they would turn them in.

     I guess this is where some of the spirituality started. Most bills we put on a 30-day rotation. But I knew these people. This was their bread and butter. I wasn’t going to make them wait 30 days.

Q: What was spiritual about that?

A: You don’t withhold somebody’s money from them. To me, that’s part of my spirituality. It’s the right thing to do.

“You don’t withhold somebody’s money from them. To me, that’s part of my spirituality. It’s the right thing to do.”

Q: When did your spiritual shift began?

A: It really started when I went into Al-Anon. My husband and I had split up and I was having a really hard time with my mother. A couple people had suggested I go to Al-Anon. I had the classic response: “What do I need to go for? I’m not the one who’s sick.” But they continued to suggest it, so I went.

     About the same time, I started my bookkeeping business. The writers and designers I was working with started coming to me with their questions about money. They’d come into my office with a 1099 and say, can you help me out? I’d explain it, and they’d say, thank you so much for taking the time to tell me this stuff. They started telling me, “You should hang out your own shingle.” Things were getting bad in my job. I wasn’t happy there anymore. So I decided to leave. They helped me. One designed my business card. One helped me write ads to put into trade magazines. Through them, I started to get clients.

Q: Do you think there’s a connection between your starting to go to Al-Anon and starting your own company in the same period?

A: When the student is ready, the teacher appears. When I went to Al-Anon, the thing that first struck me was to hear people talk about how God was working in their life. I didn’t see those things happening to me. I was scared. I was single. My marriage was over. I was starting my own business. I had a mortgage to pay. I had a co-op. But I was listening. I began to realize that if things were going to change, it had to start with me. The first three steps in 12-step programs talk about relying on God and turning your will over. I realized I really didn’t have much choice. I had to do it.

     I started praying again. But it was totally different from when I was young. I didn’t say a Hail Mary. I basically just talked to God: “Show me what to do here. Help me out. Am I doing the right thing?” Going back to the rooms, week after week – I was going to three meetings a week, consistently, for the first five years I was in program – bit by bit, I started seeing things working in my life.

“I was scared. I was single. My marriage was over. I was starting my own business. I had a mortgage to pay. I had a co-op. But I was listening. I began to realize that if things were going to change, it had to start with me.”

Q: Do you remember an a-ha moment?

A: I was still working three days a week at the company while starting my business. I was asked to do something I wasn’t comfortable with. I didn’t think it was ethical. I called a friend who was an accountant, and he said, don’t do it. It was Friday. I left a note on my boss’ desk, saying I can’t do this. When I came back the next week, I was fired. All of a sudden a lot of my income was gone. I never saw it coming. I had no idea. That was a real a-ha!

     I was starting to integrate what I was hearing in Al-Anon – say what you mean and mean what you say. Don’t play games. Do the right thing. I did it, and, whoa, I got fired.

     I realized the power of being ethical in business. It was scary. But it was also kind of cool. I was relieved to be out of there. In Al-Anon, you start learning to throw off all the lies and all the trappings, and to be honest and be who you are. That was the beginning of it, and felt good.

“I realized the power of being ethical in business. It was scary. But it was also kind of cool. I was relieved to be out of there. In Al Anon, you start learning to throw off all the lies and all the trappings, and to be honest and be who you are.”

Q: People could go several ways in that situation. You could have said, “I did the right thing and it got me fired. I won’t do that again.”

A: That never occurred to me. I never questioned whether I was doing the right thing. There was one thing I learned from my mother. She never let anyone push her around. From a very early age, I would never let anyone push me around.

     There had been another, earlier incident. When I was on Wall Street, I was asked to lie to my boss by one of his underlings. There was a big political mess going on in my company at the time. I refused to do it. These corporate types just went crazy. They couldn’t believe this secretary wouldn’t do this. I was completely alienated and ostracized by the muckety-mucks.

Q: What was the difference between the two events?

A: The first time, the fact they asked me to do it just frightened me. I thought, “Oh my God, I’m in one those Michael Douglas movies about the Wall Street tycoon who’s trying to get everybody do something illegal.” I had worked in Wall Street firms at the time when they were having major scandals. I remember sitting next to a guy who was on the front page of the paper the next day being taken out in handcuffs. I had seen that kind of stuff happen, but I had never been asked to do anything.

Q: How did having a spiritual community make it different the second time?

A: I wasn’t alone. I had a community, a group of people who understood me. I could go to an Al-Anon meeting the next day and talk about it. I had people who would support me. The first time, I didn’t have that. I couldn’t go to anybody in the company and tell them. I didn’t have a 12-step group. I could tell my husband, and he was sympathetic. He said you did the right thing. But that was it.

Q: You’ve touched a number of times on doing the right thing. How do you know what the right thing to do is?

A: I ask what my gut tells me. I also ask the Christian question, what would Jesus do? It’s a cliché, but it works. And I try to think about what I’m putting out. It’s a concept I learned early on in the 12-step program: You get back what you put out. It’s the idea of karma. If I do the wrong thing, it will come back to haunt me, in my soul.

“You get back what you put out. It’s the idea of karma. If I do the wrong thing, it will come back to haunt me, in my soul.”

Q: Coming back to the present, what are the connections between your work and spiritual life today?

A: Almost all of my clients are doing something that’s making the world a better place. Most of them are in creative work. Their politics and values are similar to mine. Most of them are spiritual. I can bring my spirituality into the workplace very easily. I don’t have to worry like I did when I was on Wall Street that I can’t go in and speak my mind and be honest about how I feel about something.

     We talk openly and honestly. When you’re dealing with money, you have to be honest. I’ll force them to take an active role and pay attention to their books. And I always set everything up so that if I walk out at lunchtime and get hit by a bus they can go back in and figure out exactly what I was doing. There are not going to be any mysteries.

     That’s who I am. That’s bringing my spirituality into the workplace. It’s all one now. I’m one person. I don’t have a work persona and a non-work persona.

“It’s all one now. I’m one person. I don’t have a work persona and a non-work persona.”

 Q: How long after Al-Anon did other spiritual activities come in?
 
A: I began feeling I wanted to start connecting to a specifically spiritual community. I had been out of the church for 20 years. My mother came up for Christmas, and said she’d really like to go to Christmas mass. When we went in, I was just overwhelmed. They were singing Adeste Fidelis in the old Latin. I just started crying. It was such a good feeling. I wanted to experience this all the time. So I started going back. And it was great. I heard everything with different ears.

That's I.t.!

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You can learn more about the Church for All People by visiting their new Website:
www.thechurchforallpeople.com

To learn more about the Catholic Apostolic Church in North America (CACINA), click on this link:
http://www.cacina.org/

To learn more about Al-Anon, click on this link: 
http://www.al-anon.alateen.org/english.html

To learn more about the Buddhist Association of the United States, click on this link: http://www.baus.org/baus/index.html

Wikipedia is also a good resource on Al-Anon, Buddhism, and religion and spirituality generally: www.wikipedia.org